Linux phones will need to run established Android apps to get users, devs won’t move where there is no users, users won’t move there if there aren’t apps. It’s almost cyclical
Right now we’re working with people who are exceptions to this, users who want to experiment and devs who don’t care about money.
Waydroid runs decently on the pinephone. On a phone with better specs, it might be downright usable for proprietary apps.
Potentially a proton-style layer could really ease transition, like on the steamdeck
BlackBerry 10 was actually a pretty slick OS that supported Android apps and you could even side-load Google Play services.
I worked in supporting those and I had an easier time helping people with windows phones. 🤢
Problems with BES?
What if the app also want’s a locked bootloader, Play Integrity, and whatever else. Like a banking app or Google Pay?
Then you run far, far away from that app. Even on an Android phone I don’t trust garbage apps that require locked bootloader and no root. There are plenty of banks out there and paying with your phone is not a necessity.
Hey, do you still plan on working on your RGB mod for PinePhone’s keyboard? It looked really awesome, but it’s probably a huge amount of work.
I went through probably 20 different iterations of keycaps and got close to one I liked, but haven’t gotten back to finishing the project since I haven’t been using my PinePhone much. I think the main remaining thing is to make an Enter key model and a Tab key model. I want to get back to that project eventually but haven’t had time.
Wow, that sounds complicated. But I’m curious if your keycaps would work better for typing than the default ones.
Not really, it’s been a hassle to get them consistent enough to match the default ones. The small scale makes printing them difficult even after I got a resin printer for the project. I settled on a two piece design that works pretty well but the resin material is not as smooth as the injection molded stock caps.
LineageOS doesn’t support Play Integrity either. Custom ROMs seem to be doing just fine.
There’s the stories about “I have to have Windows because the school’s exam proctor software requires Windows and doesn’t work with Linux” but ultimately that’s not the thing that stops the year of the linux desktop. And banking apps won’t be what breaks the year of the linux phone.
Thats a fair point, i never tried banking on waydroid. Most of the stuff i would need on the go seemed fine though.
Although, as far as tap to pay goes, i could see that getting baked into linux properly. I dont believe apple pay and google pay tap pay are using a different protocol. I may very well be wrong though.
It’s not about the protocols. It’s about business. We can have all the tech we want but until someone is willing to establish relationships with and pay the 3-4 middlemen involved in every single card payment it ain’t happening.
I can use both just fine with unlocked bootloader on an official lineage 21 rom
Burn it with fire
Yes!
Potentially a proton-style layer could really ease transition, like on the steamdeck
But if people still use proprietary software, then what’s the point? Steam OS is a proprietary operating system. Is that really what we want?
Progressive Web Apps. Web programs broke the need for Microsoft Windows.
But they’re talking mainstream support and windows is much more popular.
We need proton for Android apps
We have Waydroid which is close enough. It needs some quality of life improvements for better integration with the native Linux ecosystem but it runs Android apps just fine on Linux phones.
That’s just a Dalvik (Java) emulator, should be viable.
Agreed. Classic story that has been repeated several times over the years. Ecosystem is everything.
Microsoft’s Windows phones were fantastic. They had super nice hardware, high refresh rate screens, better cameras on their flagship models than iPhones at the time.
They were sleek, fast, the Windows tile UI actually worked great on a phone touchscreen. But it didn’t matter to most consumers because they didn’t have apps. MS had their own business apps…and that was about it. Didn’t matter that every other aspect of the phones were great, people couldn’t do what they wanted to on the Windows phones, so they didn’t buy them.
I would love to see something like Proton but for .apks instead of Windows executables. If it were as easy to install and run android apps on a mobile Linux OS as it is now to install and play Windows games on Linux, we would be in a great place to see a proper Linux phone.
GNU/Linux is not aimed at people who want the most features. It’s made for people who value freedom above everything else.
I would love to see something like Proton but for .apks instead of Windows executables. If it were as easy to install and run android apps on a mobile Linux OS as it is now to install and play Windows games on Linux, we would be in a great place to see a proper Linux phone.
You mean Waydroid? I’ve read that it works pretty well.
Depends, waydroid emulates a whole android system, whereas wine translates system calls.
You are right. But it seems to be just as easy to use.
Absolutely yes! I think this is what killed the reasonably good Windows Phones. I liked them anyway. They did what phones were supposed to do and were dirt cheap. But if you searched for any of the top 50 apps you’d find some fake BS. Like when I searched for Pandora you got an app that was nothing more than a 3-4 page summary about how Pandora was the planet in James Cameron’s Avatar.
The goal of GNU/Linux is not to make it possible to run proprietary apps (but if you really need to run Android apps you can use Waydroid). It’s to create a fully libre operating system that people can use.
The hell with android apps. In my last year with Droidian, I got better replacements for any single app I used on Android!
hot take: No.
Linux phones just need good linux software support. And then the linux user base will switch over, and everyone who isn’t simply won’t use it.
I actually genuinely do not want android developers on linux. I refuse to pay for a launcher. My entire workstation OS is developed by volunteers. Genuinely every single android app i have ever interacted with has pretty much exclusively disappointed me. It’s just a bad ecosystem.
In the same way that the linux community doesn’t need the developers of every application ever on it to thrive amongst itself, the linux phone doesnt need android developers to develop apps for it. It just needs better support for linux applications that already exist.
The only reason I will disagree: there’s already a major FOSS ecosystem on Android. There are tons of high quality free apps that aren’t FOSS
Linux isnt even that popular on desktop, my point is that people will not move if their pre established software use case is not avaliable. I won’t. I know many people who won’t.
And if there aren’t users, there won’t be people making quality software to cover wide variety of usecases and get support, if there isn’t quality software that covers a wide variety of use cases and get support there won’t be users. You need to start somewhere, it’s why the windows phone failed. No devs, so no users, and because no users, no devs.
I still don’t see your point. You’re assuming that android users will want to use a linux phone in the first place. They don’t and they wont. And that’s fine.
The only market that the linux phone has to cater to in order to develop successfully is the existing linux desktop market. The vast majority of those people are likely to want and use a linux phone. Which will actually improve the phone. And possibly even in the future bring in android developers and apps.
I don’t understand why you’re fixing on it growing, it’s just a hardware market, system76 already exists, pine already exists, linux users already exist. We exist as a bubble in a larger space and that’s ok. That’s the beauty of the unix/linux philosophy.
Realistically this is like releasing a 10,000 dollar workstation/server cpu and then having the general public complain about it being inaccessible, even though it literally wasn’t meant for them.
There are tonnes of great foss android apps.
I’m sure there’s a lot of good apps. I’ve used a few good ones, but it’s objectively worse than software on linux.
File browsers have almost universally just been awful. Horrid, and almost completely unusable. I’ve tried more than should exist really.
There are other questionable apps, which exist, do what they claim to do perfectly well, but have no utility for anything particularly useful. Even stuff like jerboa is just generally lacking in features. That is also an experience on linux so not really a huge complaint, but i really genuinely don’t see why people like android so much.
I wish Valve would make a Steam Phone. They seem to know how to do Linux devices.
Valve laptop to revive the thinkpad glory days
they don’t know to make a good android app, and you want them to make an entire cellphone💀💀
They made an entire Linux-powered portable game system that’s revolutionizing Linux gaming at the moment…an embedded engineer is not the same skillset as an app developer. Not even close.
They made a device with a proprietary operating system and proprietary software. If you really want that, why not just use Android?
Since when is Arch proprietary?
Steam OS is proprietary.
But Arch contains proprietary firmware, so technically it’s not fully free software either.
SteamOS is open source with some closed sources component. But most important think you seems not being able to understand is that Valve provide high support to Open source community, which means it wouldn’t be surprising if they decided to drop a open source phone.
SteamOS is open source with some closed sources component.
So it is not free software. It’s proprietary, unethical software that takes away your freedom. Just like Windows, Android, etc.
But most important think you seems not being able to understand is that Valve provide high support to Open source community, which means it wouldn’t be surprising if they decided to drop a open source phone.
By doing what? They only want to lock you in their proprietary platform. Most of heir software is proprietary, their games are proprietary and they restrict users with DRM. It’s a terrible company, which abuses their users. If Steam Deck contains proprietary software, why would their phone by anything different?
They can do the hardware and let someone else compile the os
Idk SteamOS seems pretty ok to me
Good point, now I’m wondering why the steam mobile app sucks
they prob put 0 effort into it because they see almost 0 ROI
Well, I don’t want it to be android powered anyways. That’s the entire point.
Hell, I think even Raspberry Pi Foundation getting into the phone market would be a game changer too.
A lot of the libcamera work done on Raspberry Pi boards is going towards improving the camera support on linux phones like the PinePhone, which is great!
Aside from that, sadly a lot of people (including myself) are kind of fed up with Raspberry Pi, after they essentially abandoned their mission during Covid to please corporations, and are preparing to go public despite being a “charity”. Broadcom, their SoC supplier, also has left a sour taste in my mouth after their purchase and mass layoffs at VMWare.
If they created a phone it would likely end up being scalped to death, and maybe pretty pricey compared to a PinePhone
Aside from that, sadly a lot of people (including myself) are kind of fed up with Raspberry Pi, after they essentially abandoned their mission during Covid to please corporations
Just out of curiosity, could you state what you think their mission was?
(I’m just wondering if anybody even remembers their original original mission.)
AFAIK their original mission was along the lines of making computers accessible at a low price point, particularly targeting the education sector in parts of the world where computers weren’t very accessible or affordable. Comparable to the OLPC, but not on an individual basis
I could be wrong though
Remember when they donated one pi for every one sold?
That’s basically it. Here’s the thing: if they followed through on that to the letter, most of the people complaining wouldn’t have ever gotten one.
Don’t forget that Raspberry PI can’t run a mainline Linux kernel. You can’t install an official Debian build on it for example. I don’t get why people are ok with that.
Raspberry PI can’t run a mainline Linux kernel.
If they did that, it would be sold out for years before you or I could get it.
They seem to have resolved their supply chain issues for now. I could buy a Pi 5 and have it dispatched tomorrow, and I did buy a Pi 4b recently, no issues with delays or lead times.
I don’t think you could go fast enough to catch Valve as they ran screaming from that idea.
Maybe it’d be the first “specialty” phone with decent specs. I always get excited for these “specialty” type phones like “Linux on my PHONE? Fuck yea!”
Until I look at the specs and it’s crap every single time and then I’m just disappointed, like the PinePhone Pro has just 4GB LPDDR4 (No not even the good LPDDR4x) lmao like what is this, 2015?? Lolol
Steam OS is proprietary, so what would be the point?
Everything that matters is open source and upstreamed or on the way there. Haven’t kept up with the state of things but as far as I am aware you can already run a mainline kernel on the Deck. Would love to see an open phone you can easily run your own distribution on without jumping through hoops.
But phones are hard. An x86 phone with decent battery life is even harder. But one can dream.
It’s certainly great that you can install any distro with mainline kernel on the deck (even if some things don’t work). But my point was that Valve doesn’t care about user freedom. Their OS and the Steam client are proprietary. If they made a GNU/Linux phone, there is no guarantee that you would be able to install a free distro and it almost certainly would come with non free software by default, which would be bad.
Would love to see an open phone you can easily run your own distribution on without jumping through hoops.
I think PinePhone Pro and Librem 5 can run a mainline kernel. It’s possible that some things won’t work, but a lot of stuff has been upstreamed. I’m curious if you can easily install an ARM build of Debian on them, but couldn’t find any information last time I looked it up.
But phones are hard. An x86 phone with decent battery life is even harder. But one can dream.
Oh yeah, that is the dream. I wonder how are the current mobile Ryzen CPUs. I’m curious if there is any that could work well in a phone.
There is a Debian spin for the Pinephone called Mobian. I ran that for quite a while with Phosh as the front end. It’s probably still installed on the device.
What I hate about ARM is that you basically need a separate image for every device instead of one for everything like with x86.
I use Mobian with Phosh too! What I love about Mobian is that it’s just a small overlay on top of Debian. The project’s goal is literally to upstream everything into Debian and to stop existing. You can see that it doesn’t add a lot of packages: https://packages.mobian.org
Yeah, you are right about ARM. It seems to be true about RISC-V as well. It’s so weird that so many people think those kinds of devices will be good for us. Sometimes I watch reviews of single board computers on YouTube and the reviewers never mention that the device can’t run mainline Linux. They can’t install Debian from debian.org on them. So instead they install some distro provided by the manufacturer and for some reason they are just fine with that. Raspberry PI is the same and almost nobody seems to be talking about this. So that’s why I’m not sure if you can install a normal distro on PinePhone Pro or Librem 5, even though they can run mainline Linux.
Also ARM SoC manufacturers don’t seem to try to have upstream Linux support. So I think that’s why PinePhone uses a 2010 SoC (if I remember correctly) and Pro uses a 2016 SoC. It’s a bad platform.
deleted by creator
I’d call the based department, but I don’t have a rotary un-smartphone™
That’s cool af
I gotta say that even though it’s not for me, I’m glad this device exists!
I appreciate the people who daily drive pinephones. They are paving the way for when they’ll be viable alternatives for the masses. (Or verifying that they won’t be, we’ll see.)
Everyone saying Android is completely missing the point. I mean yeah, it runs the linux kernel, but i feel like most of yall wouldn’t call ChromeOS linux on the other hand.
The obvious connotations are privacy, choice, wayland/x11 support, a useful terminal, a rich foss ecosystem, and arch btw.
ChromeOS is Linux and even starting to become it’s own full blown distro.
ChromeOS even uses Wayland now.
LacrosBut it’s proprietary software, right?
Well yes, in the same way Android is; where it’s based on an open source version of itself. (ChromiumOS)
At least there’s Termux. One of the very few things saving my already limited phone experience.
I’d agree with you in the context of standard (google) android.
One caveat that I’d like to highlight, though, is that for me GrapheneOS and F-Droid handily achieve the privacy and rich FOSS ecosystem parts. Useful terminal depends on your definition :) but for my use case Termux fills the void.
It doesn’t feel like Linux (you can’t even use Wifi and Ethernet at the same time for crying out loud) but for a relatively cheap low-power device, I like the flexibility.
It’s far enough from being a foot gun that I can give a Pixel 5 with GrapheneOS and some F-Droid apps to my grandmother and know she’ll have no problems. Balancing that with having enough extensibility to scratch the itch for 99% of tinkerers is a feat to appreciate in my view.
My point is really just that it is an entirely different software stack than the traditional linux experience. I cant just download the source for a standard linux app and compile it for android, it needs to be ported.
I think pinephone and librem are the closest we have gotten to a proper linux phone. But the specs suck, and the mobile optimized app ecosystem isnt there yet. Thats the point of the op meme.
I can confirm that my PinePhone runs the same software that I run on my desktop. I usually don’t even need to compile anything, since a lot of packages in Debian repo have an ARM version. Not all apps have responsive UIs and some of the old ones lack touch support, though. But that is something that keeps improving over time (GNOME 4 and libhandy for example). You can also use CLI programs if you want.
I would call anything running the Linux kernel “Linux”. Granted my LineageOS phone isn’t very much like my Debian PC, but they’re both Linux.
Daily drivin Manjaro (Plasma mobile) on my Pinephone Pro for over a year now. If you are not into the whole “taking pictures all the time” thing you can easiy use it as a daily driver. (This message was typed on it)
Who’s gonna tell him Android is based on Linux ?
Nobody because everybody knows this. Android is still not what people mean when they say linux
Android is Linux, they literally use the Linux kernel. They replace most other stuff, but Linux it is.
They even work towards mainline kernel support, making updates easier for longer times.
Android is a good example, why “Linux” is not a good term for “Desktop Gnu+Linux”.
“Android is already a Linux phone” They hated Jesus because he told them the truth.
But it isn’t GNU/Linux https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/android-and-users-freedom.html
… or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux
Yes, but it is Linux. OP doesn’t mention GNU.
That’s like saying you run FreeBSD because you have a PlayStation 5 though.
It’s so far removed people associate it as something different entirely.
It uses an ancient Linux kernel with millions of lines of code changed from the original.
Android devices run deprecated Linux kernels that have a bunch of proprietary binary blobs plopped onto them, so technically “Linux”, but not an easily updateable mainline kernel like most people are referring to when talking about “Linux.”
OK then call it what it is. You want a FOSS Linux phone.
Linux is FOSS. Android is based on Linux. Android is not Linux.
Uh you know that Debian isn’t just Linux either right? It’s based on Linux. The same way that Android is.
Debian is GNU/Linux and that’s what almost always people mean when they say Linux. Android is not GNU/Linux and doesn’t even use the mainline Linux kernel - just some old, heavily modified version.
Mobian or Manjaro ARM on the other hand are GNU/Linux distributions. They run the same software that you can run on your desktop distro.
Moving the goalposts. We weren’t talking about GNU. Not all Linux distributions use GNU.
Not all Linux distributions use GNU.
Almost all popular ones do.
Not in the way they’re talking.
Really a shame that Nokia gave up. The N900 was a well working Linux phone. I miss it dearly.
Ms did it to nokia
My favorite phone by far. Absolutely loved combined messenger built into OS and that GUI is still unmatched by any OS as far as I’m concerned.
I have fond memories of using my N900. But I would not have described it as well working :) It worked, sure, but not particularly well.
It definitely worked better than a Pinephone. And even with its puny RAM it was better at multitasking than a modern Android phone.
Android is Linux.
Modified Linux kernel, but you very well know what people mean don’t you
Every distro has a modified Linux kernel, Android is no different.
Android is the first thing I think of when I hear Linux phone
chromeos is the first thing i think of when i hear linux workstation
Well um actually a Linux workstation would be GNU/Linux and chromeos is only the Linux kernel. /s
gnu/linux is ironically a fair point in this context. But to uhm ackshually you, chromeos is technically based on chromiumos which is technically based on the linux kernel.
I think when people say “Linux phone” they mean GNU/Linux.
No. Most people mean PostmarketOS, which is Busybox/musl/Linux
No? PMOS isn’t the only thing people refer to by “Linux phone”, often its something like Ubuntu touch, which absolutely is GNU.
Fair but Ubuntu Touch is not mainline Linux. It’s a hack to get a GNU/systemd Userland working with an Android kernel (which arguably is also a huge feat)
A lot of people use Manjaro and Mobian (mobile Debian).
Sure, but PMOS is by far the most complete and “daily-ready” mobile mainline Linux distro out there. In fact I’m pretty sure both Mobian and MoA use the PMOS kernels…
I haven’t used postmarketOS, but I don’t see why it would be any better than Mobian or Manjaro (Manjaro might not be the most stable though). Maybe you are talking about Android phones, in which case you are probably right - other distros might not support those so well. postmarketOS and other distros don’t use mainline Linux, so I don’t know why you would call them that, though. For me this is the biggest flaw of GNU/Linux phones.
I know that postmarketOS developers contribute a lot in different areas, but so do Mobian developers. I think the kernel we use was initially developed by Megi.
Ah, you probably right, I think it’s more common.
I personally run ArchLinux on my PinePhone.
I was downvoted before for suggesting the Pinetab is not a viable Android or iPad replacement. That thing doesn’t even have a working wifi driver yet, you have to plug in a dongle just to connect to wifi. I’d love to have good smart devices running Linux one day, but we’re not there yet.
I’m quite optimistic about a usable Linux phone in the near future, maybe 5 years from now or so. When smartphones were a new thing, it was really hard for open source projects without a major company backing them to keep up with all the new developments. Hence all the projects that died out. But innovation on smartphones has basically come to a halt these days. Sure, your phone can get a little bit faster and have round displays now, but nobody cares anymore. Nothing of all that is essential. So, give it some time, we’ll get there.
I’m optimistic about the apps and desktop environments. We have made huge progress. But the problem is the hardware support. It seems that there are very few ARM SoCs, which work well with the mainline Linux kernel. So PinePhone uses a 2010 SoC and PinePhone Pro a 2016 SoC. And after all that time and despite community’s efforts to upstream everything, the mainline support is still not complete and we still use custom kernels.
https://blog.mobian.org/posts/2023/09/30/paperweight-dilemma/
Yes, but that’s exactly my point. The need for hardware support shrinks if the hardware doesn’t change every few months. A chip from a few years ago is still very fine. That was not the case in 2009.
Ah, good point.
If your needs are very simple, and you’re willing to go without a lot of luxuries, then yeah, it could work for you.
I don’t know, but I was thinking PinePhone would be more useful when your needs rather aren’t simple.
Yeah, I guess specific would be a better word. Like if having a good terminal emulator and SSH client is more important to you than having access to Android apps.
Thats pretty much my use case. I run a legacy iphone (i know) and terminal apps arent great so far. I often need to work on the go and carrying a laptop everywhere is tedious. Having a phone with a „simple“ linux OS and terminal emulator would be awesome.
You can run any GNU/Linux program on it as long as it has an ARM build (a lot of them do) or you compile it for ARM. There is also the keyboard addon (https://pine64.org/documentation/Phone_Accessories/Keyboard/), but it makes the phone bigger.
Thats very cool. I‘m still wondering it the pinephone would work for me. I use like 5 apps regularly (obviously would find others I dont recognize as using):
- Homeassistant (could use web interface)
- Easypark (probably the most problematic to find)
- Sonos (might be able to use an open source version such as on debian)
- Fluffychat
- Voyager for Lemmy
The rest is mostly functions I „need“ but dont need specific apps for.
- Pictures (taking and viewing, maybe nextcloud upload but that could be done by a script as well)
- Web browser
- Music
- Calls
I think thats about it… Do you think that could work?
Edit: I have a stupid idea! I fondly remember my blackberry from back in the day. Obviously its not for the mainstream but pinephone isnt either. Wouldnt a step back to a blackberry design be pretty awesome for us nerds? :)
It’s hard to say if it will work for you. For some people it does and for others it doesn’t. It’s just something you would have to see for yourself and it might require some time to set everything up the way you want it. It’s a device that requires tinkering. Voyager seems to have a web version and so does FluffyChat. I use Nheko Matrix client (available in Mobian/Debian repo) - it’s a native app that works pretty well. I don’t know about the other apps, but in general you can run Android apps through Waydroid. Maybe those would work too.
There are no push notifications, so if you want the phone to suspend and still receive Matrix notifications, you would have to setup a script that will wake the phone up periodically.
Pictures (taking and viewing, maybe nextcloud upload but that could be done by a script as well)
This works on the original PinePhone, but the camera itself is pretty bad. PinePhone Pro has a decent one, but I’m not sure what the current state of that is. My understanding is that it works, but the pictures might not look that great. I think it’s only one guy working on the camera app and he is currently working on a new version: https://blog.brixit.nl/fixing-the-megapixels-sensor-linearization/. For syncing files with a desktop I use SyncThing, but Nextcloud should probably work too. For sending just a few specific files from time to time you could use KDE Connect or even just SSH.
Web browser
That works. I use Firefox. PinePhone doesn’t have a lot of RAM, though, so you won’t be able to have a lot of tabs open at once.
Music
Definitely works. I use Lollypop app (available in Mobian/Debian), which works well on a mobile screen. The phone has a headphone jack if you need it. The speaker isn’t very good.
Calls
This works, but audio quality during phone calls isn’t always good. There also seem to be some modem issues on PinePhone Pro: https://zerwuerfnis.org/daily-driving-the-pinephone-pro. I think it’s currently recommended to install the free modem firmware and I’m not sure if the author was using that (the phone doesn’t come with it installed).
I’m not sure if MMS works (SMS does), since I don’t use that. Support for emergency broadcasts is now being added to Phosh: https://phosh.mobi/posts/cellbroadcast/
You should also know that the battery life isn’t very good. So if you use the phone a lot, you might need either an extended battery case or spare batteries (the battery is replaceable) or the keyboard addon.
Edit: I have a stupid idea! I fondly remember my blackberry from back in the day. Obviously its not for the mainstream but pinephone isnt either. Wouldnt a step back to a blackberry design be pretty awesome for us nerds? :)
I don’t know which one you mean, but I would love to have a slider keyboard! Technically you could make one and I’ve been wondering how hard that would be. PinePhone has some pins on the back that you could use - one of them is i2c. The keyboard addon from Pine64 uses them (they have other addons too). It’s probably a lot of work to make something like that, though.
This is a lot more than I could have hoped for! Thank you so much! :) I‘m somewhat convinced that I need to try this now. :)
I’ve been daily driving Ubuntu Touch on the Fairphone 4 for over a year. I love it, even if some features are lacking. Calling and text is stable, but unfortunately Volte support is still missing. Waydroid is also working great.
I’m not sure if Ubuntu Touch is GNU/Linux, since it uses the android kernel I think. But it’s not android either.
ironically, the fact that i would genuinely rather spend my money on a pinephone as opposed to an android should go to show how little i care for android devices.
